[0:03] Speaker A (Tom Goodwin): Well, we have another beautiful day in Gatlinburg, and it's such a privilege to sit here with Cindy Cameron Ogle, who is a incredible influence within this community. And you have served so well in the Gatlinburg community. And I'm excited for our listeners to hear more of your story and your love for Gatlinburg. So welcome, Cindy. [0:22] Speaker B (Cindy Cameron Ogle): Thank you. Very kind comments. Thank you. [0:24] Speaker A: Well, they're heartfelt, for sure. And I know there's more of your story that I want to hear, and I know our listeners would love to hear as well, but would love to hear when it all began for you and how you first discovered Gatlinburg and your love for Gatlinburg. [0:39] Speaker B: Okay, so I am a Knoxvillian, was born and raised in South Knoxville. And so as a little girl, we would load up in daddy's car and we would come to the mountains. Honestly, I don't remember so much coming to the city as much as going up into the mountains. [1:02] Speaker A: Into the park. [1:02] Speaker B: Yes, into the park. Park. And so there's that. But then when I was a sophomore at the University of Tennessee in Knoxville, I landed in a relationship with a guy that actually was going to Columbia University on a academic, whatever, scholarship. I don't need to talk about him. Let me get to the point. [1:31] Speaker A: What that led to. [1:32] Speaker B: Yeah, what that led to is that he was a member of a singing group and they were called the Hot Fudge Sunday and they performed at the River Terrace Hotel Motel. And in those days, these singing groups would go around town and you would hand out information about where they were performing and what time. And that was my role in this, in this gig that I, That I got involved in and so rented a little room, I wouldn't call it an apartment exactly. Above Parton's deli. [2:17] Speaker A: Wow. [2:18] Speaker B: So that was that summer gig. And then I went on to complete undergraduate school. I had an undergraduate degree have in human services. I was out to save the world. No one would pay me to save the world. So I had to kind of search around about other things to do. And so I came back to Knoxville, missed my mother terribly, and came back to Knoxville and started working for ut Department of Head Start Training. And that's when I landed in the graduate school public administration program. So that became my mother's full time focus, was getting me through graduate school. And then when I completed, when I received my MPA or in the process finalizing that, a professor knew that the pre. That the assistant city manager at the time with the city had an MPA from UT as well. So that was the connecting point. Gatlinburg was looking for a token woman. They were. There was a lot of grant money out and about, and that was going to help in that process. [3:43] Speaker A: And they thought they were just getting a token woman. [3:46] Speaker B: Correct. [3:47] Speaker A: And they thought wrongly. [3:49] Speaker B: Yeah, yeah. And, you know, it's a God thing. There's no doubt about that. I had many days where I thought perhaps it was a devil thing, but I truly believe that it was a God thing that I ended up. So I became assistant very quickly because this assistant got bumped up to city manager. And so that's where I really entered the scene as it relates to the city and to really, really fallen in love with it. And back in those days, there were a lot of folks that I would talk to, like me that moved in here, and it was kind of a love or hate situation. And so that was. You know, my case was that it was that I. That I did fall in love with the city and with the people of the city, you know. [4:46] Speaker A: So that was in 1976 or 78. 78. You were the assistant city manager. Just for our listeners to understand, you just retired. [4:57] Speaker B: Yes. [4:58] Speaker A: From your role as city manager. Yes, a year and a half ago. [5:01] Speaker B: Six months. [5:02] Speaker A: Six months ago. [5:03] Speaker B: Yeah. [5:04] Speaker A: Time flies. So. Six months ago. [5:06] Speaker B: Yeah. [5:06] Speaker A: So there's a long history, long longevity, and it's amazing how many leaders have such a long span of influence within our community, from business owners to those that are public servants as well. So to give perspective, you served for. [5:24] Speaker B: Almost 50 years, 45 years total with the city, and 35 as city manager. [5:31] Speaker A: That's. That's unprecedented. [5:33] Speaker B: Absolutely. [5:34] Speaker A: And you're definitely a pioneer as a woman leading a community. And I'm sure you've had challenges in regards to that and having the opportunities to have a voice within other communities in the state and nationwide as well. So we want to dig a little bit more into your experience and going back to 1978. What. What was Gatlinburg like? What. What was your daily job? What was your challenges then as assistant city manager? [6:00] Speaker B: Yeah. So in 19, in the late 78, 79 into the early 80s, you know, we were a pretty small organization, maybe 70 employees. Today there's 350 employees, just to put that in perspective. So we were a pretty small operation, and there was. It was very different in those days in the regard of. Everybody was related. Right. You had to learn to not talk about anybody with a local because somehow they probably were related. And. But there was just. There was a general feeling of community, of love, of the town and of the area. It's kind of the good old days, you know that it was that way. We were just talking. So that's say the first seven or eight years and then we were talking before we officially got started here. And the community became. A lot of the folks that we were just speaking of, well educated, well traveled, to use your really good articulation of that. And they didn't. They moved in and they did not hesitate to be involved in the whole governmental process. [7:43] Speaker A: So backing up on this, we're talking about individual homeowners that found this gem of Gatlinburg with these unprecedented views. The quiet nature of Gatlinburg, very slow, restful, peaceful place. These people were well educated, well traveled, had wealth and purchased land and purchased homes and enjoyed that. But then they also became very involved in how the city would develop and the government and the affairs is any property owner would want to have those concerns. So there wasn't the robust vacation rental market here. It was mostly a few hotels. [8:24] Speaker B: Correct. [8:25] Speaker A: It wasn't year round season of travelers. It was a very segmented time of the year that people would come mostly in the summer and through maybe Thanksgiving at the most. [8:35] Speaker B: At the most. [8:36] Speaker A: And homes weren't rented out for people as vacation homes. That was unheard of. You had a vacation home just for yourself and anyone that could afford a vacation home obviously had to be educated and well traveled and had to have the finances to do that. So when you were sitting in city meetings, you would use mentioned. You would have 150 people. [8:56] Speaker B: Oh yeah. [8:56] Speaker A: Show up. [8:57] Speaker B: Yes, absolutely. [8:58] Speaker A: And what were their concerns then? [9:01] Speaker B: Well, there was. So there were two or three very strong political groups, I'll call them, meaning that they were groups. And as I will say, explain. Okay, so there was the Gatlinburg Garden Club. Okay. And the Gatlinburg Garden Club was made up of. I would say back in the day it was easy and. And you know, your mother in law was very. [9:27] Speaker A: My aunt. Yes. [9:28] Speaker B: Yeah. Okay. And yeah. Edna. Yeah. Loved Edna, by the way. I loved your mother too. But yeah. So there were 200 women in the Gatlinburg Garden Club. And to put that in perspective, I think there might be 20 now, I. [9:45] Speaker A: Don'T know if any associations that have 200 members in a voluntary club. Yeah. Now today at Gatlinburg. So it was a robust social center. [9:55] Speaker B: Robust is another great word to describe that. There was also a very strong retired citizen association and Rotary was. Which I was a member of for a little while. Or actively a member of for a while. That was probably 150 to 200 strong as well. So those groups, and especially the garden club and the retired citizens were very. [10:28] Speaker A: How many residents were there in Gatlinburg at that time? [10:31] Speaker B: About the same as there are today, which I think is interesting. 4,000. 3,500. 3,500 to 4,000. Yeah, that number hasn't changed much, much at all. The demographic of that 3,500 to 4,000 has. Yes, but not that number. So there was an example. The city of Gatlinburg purchased what was called the Schilling Clinic. Has anyone mentioned that to you? Okay, the Schilling Clinic is on Reagan Drive, which is where our utility department is housed. Now the court clerk has a little office in there. I think it still over there. But it was really kind of, I hate to say bizarre because it's too strong of an adjective, but for a city to go buy a medical clinic was a bit unusual back in those days. And I'm, and I'm still in the early to the mid-80s, but by golly, the retired citizens in the Gatlinburg Garden Club wanted that clinic purchased and us, and us, the city, to recruit a doctor to continue to operate that facility. And lo and behold, that's what happened. [12:00] Speaker A: Wow. So government run health care. [12:02] Speaker B: Yeah, yeah. Back in those days we talk about. [12:05] Speaker A: Them being pioneers, but that's pretty progressive. [12:07] Speaker B: Yeah, well. And again, you express it really well. And so, yeah, we, we were like scratching our heads, going, okay, I don't know that this is really what the city needs within the parameters of what. [12:22] Speaker A: We should be doing. [12:23] Speaker B: Yeah, but, but that's what happened. And so then we did recruit actually who we recruited to come. And he may not be the very first one, but Dr. Charles Bozeman, who is still in practice down in Sevierville and is my doctor. It has been ever since the days that he operated out of the Schilling Clinic. But it was really important to the retired citizenry here that there be a medical clinic in town. And if Schilling Clinic had just closed and sold to something else, there wouldn't be one. So it was a really important thing to them. Dr. Schilling is who delivered tons of babies in town many years prior. And so anyway, that's just an example, I think, of the impact of those groups back in those days. And that led to some unique approaches and decisions, you know, and maybe your. [13:31] Speaker A: Masters of public administration didn't prepare you for all of those things. [13:35] Speaker B: Not. Not exactly. [13:36] Speaker A: And maybe your Degree in social work. Did. Yeah. [13:39] Speaker B: More so. Yeah, there you go. More so. So, you know, and I, and I think that also speaks to the uniqueness of Gatlinburg, which is still today. But back in those days, the fact that I hate this terminology. I don't even know that it's used anymore, it's so archaic. But the cutting edge type things. And that was the. And honestly that was the aspect of the city as it related to me from a professional standpoint that kept me engaged. I will tell you that there were two times that I was passed over to be city manager and the second time it happened I got really aggravated and that's the nicest way I can describe that. [14:37] Speaker A: And it's a very southern response. [14:39] Speaker B: Yes. And I, and I look for another position. I look to go do something. [14:46] Speaker A: Hey, if they're not going to recognize me or give me advancement here, I'll look somewhere else. [14:49] Speaker B: Yeah, yeah. And that didn't come together. So there again a God thing, I think providential thing that did not the city manager, the man that was hired that second go round, which by now we're like in 1986, 87, we had just moved into the new city hall out on Highway 321 and that didn't work out very well. And I mean when those cases of the love hate I was talking about, I think, I think was part of the dynamic with him and his family that they just didn't fit very well. And it was at that point that there was a group of older, not old, older men of the community and a couple of gals. But that said, you know, why do you keep skipping over her? What's this about? She's one who's behind the scenes doing the work. And so it was out of folks like my father in law. Well, at the time he wasn't. But ultimately my father in law coot ogled Luther KUD ogle Bruce Montgomery FORMER SHERIFF and these folks have passed over and how we miss them. So there was, you know, and I think it was. And I had. And I had a couple of the younger political guys say, you know, we just didn't think the timing was right yet for you. But it is now. So that's what happened in 19. Officially I was sworn in in 1989. [16:50] Speaker A: Great. [16:50] Speaker B: Yeah. So. [16:52] Speaker A: And so your vision for Gatlinburg probably increased year after year after year. And would you have ever imagined that Gatlinburg would become what it is today? [17:04] Speaker B: That's a good question. And I hesitate because maybe I did a Little bit. I think I did some also, because bear in mind, it's. We're at the old city hall and the then finance director comes into. And I'm assistant comes into our offices and says, you're not going to believe this, but Pigeon Forge just surpassed us as it relates to sales taxes. [17:44] Speaker A: Revenues coming in. [17:45] Speaker B: Revenues coming in. It was a dark day at Gallup City hall that day. So I say that. To say this, I think seeing the development occurring below us, below the tunnel, as we say, you know, we knew that there were some nooks and crannies and things that could be developed here as well. And we knew that we were going to have to be doing that indeed, to keep up with the Joneses, so. [18:18] Speaker A: To speak, and yet maintain the quaintness of Gatlinburg. [18:23] Speaker B: And here's the thing about that. Tom and I have said this before, and I now can say pretty much anything I want to, but isn't that a good feeling? Yeah. So. But, you know, that's a God thing. These mountains hemming us in on three sides forces that to a large degree. And what a blessing there was. You mentioned the gym. And I thought about this this morning, getting ready to come here. There was a county, all the cities in the county participated in hiring a company that I tried this morning to remember the name of it, and I cannot. But they came in and did like a look at. I wouldn't call it a master plan. It was more like looking at what you got and what could you do, and those kind of things. And that group. And I'm thinking they were out of Atlanta. I think they said they described in their report, which kind of aggravated everybody else in the county, but they described Gatlinburg as the crown jewel of the Smokies. And. And that was. That was really good. That was really cool. That made. Made us pretty proud of ourselves. [19:52] Speaker A: Yes, I. I definitely have a bias towards Gatlinburg. [19:55] Speaker B: Yeah, me too. [19:55] Speaker A: So tell us about your entree into the Ogle family and all that you experienced there. [20:01] Speaker B: So first of all, I would be remiss if I didn't clarify that we are the poor Ogles. And then there's the set. There's the bunch of the rich uncles and I. And we. And Bud and I said that, you know, in good jest with. We're very close to the. Some of the rich ogles. There is a very distant, Let me just say this very distant relationship between our bunch of vocals and their bunch of vocals. And the difference, the rich versus poor is about how many generations existed prior to Bud Ogle? [20:48] Speaker A: So how far you go back will determine how poor they. But everyone started off pretty poor, pretty humble, right? [20:54] Speaker B: So in the case of Dave Ogle, who's Dave and Mindy, your dear, dear friends and have been so supportive of me since, since my husband's unexpected passing. And so they, you know, they're, they're. Dave's generation is. I'm guessing I'm making, I'm not making it up completely, but I'm guessing it's probably third generation. And see, Bud and his siblings are. His mom and his dad was poor as a church mouse, had nothing. And his mother was in a little. She's a little bit less poor, let me put it that way. Her father was considered the sheriff of town back in the day when there wasn't such a thing. But he was. Apparently he accepted that responsibility. He accepted that responsibility and, and so Kudo goal was, you know, in the right place at the right time. And he started, he started buying up property and notably Twin Islands, that is now where Margaritaville Hotel sits. It was, it had been underwater. And he went to. And I cannot think, I try to remember some of this stuff. This is where we need budget and or coot. But he had tried to buy that property and whomever, again I cannot remember the owner's name, would not sell until there was this flood that occurred and the high water that occurred. And so then that happened. But that's really where Mr. And Mrs. Ogle really got started. That, you know, Ogles Buffet Restaurant and then Crossroads. And actually Bud would say to me, you know, the family really owns as much in Pigeon Forge as we do in Gatlinburg. So Ogles Water park. And I'm saying these because for those of us older, we will remember those places and how significant they were to the development of the area. So truly Coot and Stella Ogle are in that class of the pioneers of tourism in this town. And I'm so proud to have been accepted into the family and be a part. Have a little part of that heritage myself. [24:14] Speaker A: Well, as an outside girl, you came onto the inside scene and really navigated some difficult times. Some Incredible celebratory times and created a lot of new traditions in our city that are still happening today. And you've continued a lot of those. But would love to hear, maybe let's just touch on some of the challenges that you had in your role and kind of the unique position of being a woman in leadership in an era of time where that was unusual and being a pioneer yourself and understanding that. What were some of the challenges that you faced in that role as a woman specifically? [24:48] Speaker B: So good question. And I'm glad to say that I never felt that challenge from the perspective of being a female. [25:03] Speaker A: That's incredible. [25:04] Speaker B: Yeah, it was different for me. I think as it relates to being female and doing the work as a. [25:13] Speaker A: Leader in the community, there were challenges. There were pockets of people that had strong opinions or as any community would have, and different constituencies to make sure that they were happy. And then looking at future growth. How do you navigate these relationships? What takes a priority? What takes a backseat at certain times? As you look through your tenure, obviously probably the. One of the biggest challenges was the fires of 2016. [25:39] Speaker B: Absolutely. [25:40] Speaker A: And were there any others prior to that that were maybe not as significant, but that provided a challenge, that maybe when you pressed through it, it provided a better future for Gatlinburg. [25:54] Speaker B: It is so hard to answer that because the fires trump everything. Everything. How it. Well, they did until the passing of my husband. And now that's. They. They pill in comparison to me personally. And. And so, I mean, there were political squabbles about this and that and what have you. I remember one of the. This. This is when two things happened that I said to myself, what in the world am I doing here? One was during a city commission meeting with a huge debate about the rod runs that occurred in downtown Gatlinburg that were a mess and a miracle that someone did not honestly truly get killed or more than someone just from the craziness of the cars and all those things. Takeover Parkway. And there was a big division in the community. There were those who really wanted that to continue to happen. There were those who absolutely didn't. And sitting in a commission meeting and somebody brought a baseball bat. And I thought, well, I hope they don't hit me with that. I don't care. You know, and so there was that. And that goes way back. That actually goes back to the very initial days of when that. That was occurring. But throughout the years, you know, there would. Gatlinburg was a very politically active community. Honestly, I think it's less so now. I think the world perhaps is less so now I don't. That sounds, you know, who am I to talk about the world with the unbelievable things that are upside down, world mine in the whole world that are happening. But there is, you know, there just was a difference like what we were talking about with these pioneers, with these strong women, with these folks that didn't hesitate to let you know their opinion. And so all that really calmed down some. We changed from two year terms and an election every year to four year terms and an election every two years. And I maintain that that was, it was somewhat of a subtle change, but it was a. Had a. Had a terrific. [28:34] Speaker A: More stability. [28:35] Speaker B: Correct, correct. There wasn't the revolving door on the city manager's office. [28:39] Speaker A: You're always campaigning. [28:40] Speaker B: Right, right. So that had, I think that was a major turning point politically with things in. And you know, the bottom line is to really get anything accomplished, you've got to have some cohesiveness. You got to have some working together toward the same goal. And we had that. You know, I've been asked, what do you consider what's your proudest legacy project? And there's a lot that I have been fortunate to be involved in. So it's not an easy question considering my 10. But the undergraduating of utilities, in my opinion, had such a huge positive impact on the aesthetics of town. [29:30] Speaker A: I completely agree and I mentioned that in the podcast recording with Chad Netherland and how that transformed the downtown, made it more of a village and made it more walkable, made it more quaint and showed off a lot more the architecture, not to mention the mountains. [29:47] Speaker B: Exactly. [29:47] Speaker A: So just really, I know that's a herculean feat to do something of that level in a very dense area, highly populated, highly trafficked. [30:00] Speaker B: There were a lot of unhappy business people through those years of the undergrounding projects occurring. So I think that was. I think that we truly tried to focus on improving the product in any way that we could, particularly with the competition below the tunnel to do the undergrounding and to highlight the fact that you could come to town and park your car and get on a trolley and be all over town that even if you didn't want to get on a trolley, walking really wasn't that long of a proposition either. You know, the pedestrian nature of town, so unusual. That's the other unique characteristic that we have. And so we really did try to take on projects. However, let me go to this. These mountains that have hemmed us in, thank God, also very challenging from a development of economic development, types of Projects, which is why we did some really somewhat crazy things with doing the convention center and the small footprint that in course, now it's the smallest one in the county. But it's probably also. Now I'm going to spitball this one. Don't do any fact checking. It's probably also the most successful overall in the county convention centers. And, you know, the folks involved in. And I was assistant still at this point, but that was a major thing for the leaders of town to say, you know, let's go do this. And fast forwarding here into more recent years would be Rocky top and the development of that. You know, I hate to keep talking about folks that have passed, but that's just what it is. My mother passed in 1987, and that was another point in time when I was just ready just to. I'm like, but I'm done. You know, Mother didn't understand why I continued to work after I married into the Ogle family. Because she was a bit traditional, needless to say. And. And I'd say, mom, gosh, we spent two. We worked too hard to get this master's degree. We don't want to just not use it. Let's go use this thing. But anyway, I was like, over whatever. And that's when the aquarium project potential hit my desk. And so that was something that, you know, behind the scenes, the political leadership wanted that to happen, wanted the aquarium to develop here in town, and we needed that in town. Obviously, a lot of other things have happened since then, but it still, you know, stands out as an important private public partnership to get some economic activity in downtown. [33:30] Speaker A: Yeah, I think there's so much. It's not like an aquarium just pops up. There's developers, there's investors, there's policies that need to be followed, building codes. And even with the nature of an aquarium, you want to be good stewards of the environment, of the aquarium, and of the animals that are there as well. But I think so many hundreds of thousands have enjoyed that, enjoyed a myriad of other activities. Of course, the 12 to 14 million people a year that come to the national park is the crown jewel, you know, of Gatlinburg, and maybe Gatlinburg is the crown jewel of the national park. You know, we like to consider that. [34:09] Speaker B: Yeah. But for the national park, Gatlinburg wouldn't have developed as it did. You know, Bud's parents wouldn't have had a reason to necessarily be making the investments themselves at that time. And so I think it's always important that we don't forget the goose that laid the golden egg, you know, and that. And that indeed being the Great Smoky Mountains national park. [34:45] Speaker A: And that. That came at a great cost to families as well, that had their settlements in the Sugarlands areas. And yeah, that had to move. [34:52] Speaker B: Bud's father was. All I can think right now is Twin Islands, which obviously is not it. Going up Airport Road, going up into that part of the park. Sure. Twin Creeks. [35:07] Speaker A: Twin Creeks. [35:08] Speaker B: Twin Creeks. That's it. [35:09] Speaker A: Yes. Yes. There's the. [35:10] Speaker B: So Buds. And Baskin's Creek is all up, I guess is. Well, I know is all up in there. And Bud's father's people had. They were displaced because, you know, that's part of the park and they were displaced. So, yeah, like you say, there was. There was a lot of give and take on. That led to that. [35:33] Speaker A: So that the visitors that come here come because of the generosity of others or the sacrifice. Maybe sacrifice is a better word for others when we think about a time of sacrifice and challenge. And you alluded to this before, as far as probably the most difficult challenge you faced in leadership, apart from losing your husband up to that point in your life, was the fires. November 27, 2016. And you had a mantle of leadership and an opportunity to lead our community through that difficult time. What was it like for you personally as you experienced not only a personal challenge, a professional challenge, but how did you see this community rally? And what was the spirit of Gatlinburg that really gave you hope for a better future here? [36:24] Speaker B: Well, so initially, you know, was the. And I've always attributed this to Dr. Jack Parton, our former director of schools, you know, Mountain Tufts. [36:41] Speaker A: Yes. [36:41] Speaker B: And that was, you know, we are mountain tough and have our Lord and Savior, Jesus Christ. And so that was how everyone wrapped. And everyone did physically and literally. I mean, literally, figuratively and literally wrapped their. We wrapped our arms around each other. [37:08] Speaker A: One of the most wonderful things is that the city was, for the most part, preserved. [37:14] Speaker B: Right. [37:14] Speaker A: The city of Gatlinburg was preserved. There was devastation in the. Above the city. [37:19] Speaker B: Right. On the. On the. On the mountain ridges. On the ridges. [37:23] Speaker A: We lost 50% of our business in one night. Nine homes personally, and 46 homes that we managed of our 96. So that was a trajectory that it changed forever how we. How you do, how we did business. [37:38] Speaker B: Yeah. Right. [37:39] Speaker A: So as you led in that process, apart from kind of the inner workings and the challenges and the turmoils that you had to bear as a leader, as any leader does, what were some of the highlights and from the community, from other leaders that you saw. This is what it really looks like to be mountain tough. This is how we joined together or coalesced. What are some examples of how you saw that in the following years after the fires? [38:04] Speaker B: Another great question. You didn't, you didn't, you didn't clue me in on this. What? [38:09] Speaker A: I didn't. [38:09] Speaker B: I. [38:09] Speaker A: We're just having. What we do is have a conversation here. [38:13] Speaker B: Absolutely. Absolutely. You know, there were 2500 structures. [38:17] Speaker A: Yes. [38:18] Speaker B: That burned up that, that night. And of those, very few were businesses. I mean, they were businesses, but they, you know exactly what I'm saying. Because you lived it too. So I just think there was just generally, you know, we're going to, we're going to, we're going to get past this. We're going to build back and hopefully build better and be stronger, you know, as a result of going through this kind of, kind of experience. Now, did any of us want to. No. Not ever. In your wildest imaginations, did we think. Did I think. I think I can say for the majority of us in, like you say, leadership, we never did. We were concerned about the drought. We knew it was really dry. We knew there were some fires in the area. We knew we'd see smoke occasionally and all those things. [39:24] Speaker A: I was, I was here that afternoon. I left like we closed down our office. We asked all of our guests not to come back to their houses. And that was like at one in the afternoon. And it was just a, like a campfire feel like of the whole town. [39:40] Speaker B: Yeah. [39:40] Speaker A: And even ash coming down. But it never crossed your mind that there would be that difficult loss. And the hard thing is, you know, there were 14 lives lost. [39:50] Speaker B: Absolutely. [39:50] Speaker A: In that. And the greatest sacrifice and the tragedy of that, and that is, number one, devastated, devastated families. And I do remember at Rocky Top and Gatlinburg, Pittman High School, and kind of being the central area of gathering when tragedy happens like that, the most important thing is the safety of people. And the greatest loss is the loss of life. And thinking that happened the Monday after Thanksgiving, had it happened 48 hours earlier, it would have been of global epic proportions. The loss. Absolutely, because we know what the mountain roads are like and getting down and the difficulty of getting down. And fortunately, since then, there's, there's clear instruction, there's updated siren warning. [40:38] Speaker B: Right. [40:39] Speaker A: Personal cell phone. [40:40] Speaker B: Right. [40:41] Speaker A: Attention to all of. We're, we're a lot more sensitive and responsible in that. And not to mention not to think that we were irresponsible in that it's just a challenge that none of us could have entered. [40:52] Speaker B: Right, Right. [40:54] Speaker A: So I don't want to end on that note because there's so many wonderful relationships and stories, and I think you. [41:01] Speaker B: Well, and let me say this about Rocky Top in the context of what we just said. I was, I guess you could say, lamenting to a dear friend, one of my dear Knoxville friends about, you know, we didn't spend $25 million on a. On Rocky Top for it to become a shelter, and. Yeah, yeah, yeah. And she looked at me and she said, but don't you think that God intended for that to happen? And I'm like, okay, I needed to hear that. You. You put me in the right pew. I was. I was in the wrong pew there. Thinking. Thinking the other way. So there is that. And so, yeah, I'm with you. I don't really want to end on the fires because we did. We did recover. We did rebuild. We did come through that marathon. Congressman Rowe, he was congressman at the time, super supportive. We had so much support from federal, but. And especially Dolly Parton. Dolly. Yeah. Wow. [42:20] Speaker A: Talk about a strong woman. [42:21] Speaker B: Yeah. [42:22] Speaker A: Giving leadership and reflecting the heart of our community. [42:25] Speaker B: I'm glad you said that. So let me do one more reminiscing. And I was assistant, and so there was a. I think it was a first year birthday or celebration of Dollywood being Dollywood, you know, like the first year thing. Okay. And so she was coming in for it, and she wanted every person official on the stage to be female. [42:56] Speaker A: Love it. [42:57] Speaker B: So the then city manager, who was the one right before me, and this did not help my relationship with him, let me just say that then I was asked as assistant to be up there. Arlene Teesters, city manager and Pigeon Forge. And she blazed a big trail for me, too. But speaking of fires and history. And the then tourism commissioner was a female. I want to say maybe Sandra Fulton or something like. I think. I think I'm right about saying that Her. Her husband had run for governor, and he didn't. He didn't make it. But she. She was Tourism commissioner. Ruby Fox, a gal out of Sevierville. I don't know if I would say that Dot Nandin probably knew Ruby. They were of the same generation. She was the chamber director. And I'm trying to think of. I think. I think mainly it was the four or five of us local female leaders. And then that's what she wanted. You know, she. She was real clear, this is what I want. And so. So it was that. That there again, you know, strong woman, an amazing woman, a woman who has not. And these other strong women, by the way, have these same characteristics, but they're not Dolly with the. With the fame. Fame, you know, the being so famous and so successful. But some of them, in their quiet ways, they have those same characteristics. Yeah, yeah. [44:35] Speaker A: Benevolence, charity, generosity, fierceness. That I love you pointing that out. And I'm a father of five daughters, so I bless you. Yes, I am blessed, for sure. I'll never be alone. Well, my cell phone and text will always include messages from them, which is great. But another example of a pioneering spirit in this community. Kind of trailblazing and setting a pattern for leaders who happen to be women. And what an incredible testimony. And Dolly would be a whole nother episode. [45:15] Speaker B: Yeah. Wouldn't you love to get her doing this? [45:17] Speaker A: Well, if you have any connections, I would love to have a conversation with dollar personally, but for our guests, I think they would love that too. To hear from her perspective. Last question. [45:28] Speaker B: Okay. [45:29] Speaker A: I know you miss Bud, and I know he'd be so proud of you. And I know you would want to enjoy your retired years together if you were to have dinner with him tonight. And I'm sure conversations like these go across your mind. But what would you say to him if. About your hopes and your dreams for his community and your community of what you would want it to become? [45:56] Speaker B: Wow. That it would continue to be the mountaintop community that it is. That it would continue to have the faith and generosity that it has, and that it would continue to be a successful community. Because that clearly was what we were about. Right. Wrong or indifferent, as you well know. It's got to be about economic success as well. Just not losing the uniqueness that we have within this county, within this region. You know, like you said, people think they're coming to Gatlinburg, and there are still places that will say they're in Gatlinburg, and maybe they're really not in Gatlinburg, but Gatlinburg's the operative, well known descriptor. Right. So there's that. But, yeah, that there would just continue to be. Striving toward excellence comes to mind. I'm not even sure that that says it as well as I want to. Striving toward the beauty of the area and continuing to. To let that beauty shine and not perhaps. See, I have a little bit different perspective, and Bud probably would too, at this point in time, that it would really, you know, you'd really like to see the aesthetic improvements continue to occur again, because I think that is the way that we stand out and just want to see that and the continued success of town. [48:17] Speaker A: That's wonderful. We want the town to reflect the beauty of what surrounds it, beauty of the park. And that beauty comes through people. It also comes through the buildings and the protection of the area. And that our guests can experience that. [48:32] Speaker B: And I want to say this. I really appreciate your doing this. I think that. I think it's really special that you all have the interest and concern. And I just think that's really unique that you, Tom, and your family and your family business have that. So I think that's really special. And I know that Dot and Ralph would really. And Edna would really like this too. [49:02] Speaker A: Thank you. Our third core value is that we believe we are generous stewards. And I think part of being a steward is maintaining the stories and carrying on the legacy of those that have gone before us. So I'm so glad to have had you here today, Cindy. And I know many people know who you are. And now many people, a lot more people, know your story. And you brought your humanity and your story to the table here. I thank you for your vulnerability with that and for sharing with us. It's a real privilege to sat here. [49:37] Speaker B: With you this time. Thank you.